Exploring Burnout & Well-being

Episode summary:

[00:00:58] Getting to Know Sally Clarke
[00:04:31] How to Sally designed an Energetic Life, her burnout story
[00:09:14] Type-A Yoga
[00:12:54]Why is Burnout only about Work?
[00:16:17] What incentives do organizations have to improve well-being?
[00:20:05] Wellness Metrics in the World
[00:22:42] Wellbeing Report
[00:27:06] Full Time Reduced Hours
[00:28:32] Design our Work
[00:33:11] Burnout impact on our Community
[00:37:01] Post Burnout Growth
[00:38:28] Protect your Spark
[00:43:54] Mini Experiment, BRNT
[00:46:21] Connect with Sally

[00:46:42] Final Five
[00:46:52] Definition of Serenity
[00:47:09] Master 1 Skill
[00:47:20] Recharge Method
[00:47:56] Geeking Out
[00:48:34] Ideal Day
[00:50:36] Take Away Message

Listen to the full episode

Meet our guest, Sally Clarke

Sally Clarke is a senior associate at Infinite Potential. A former finance lawyer, she is the author of two books on burnout, including Amazon best-seller ‘Protect Your Spark’, and speaks regularly at conferences and events on the causes of burnout and preventative solutions for individuals and organizations. ​Sally is also co-Director at Human Leaders, providing leadership development and culture co-creation consultancy, and sits on several advisory boards around the globe providing guidance on systemic burnout prevention. She splits her time between Amsterdam and Australia.

My mission is to embed wellbeing at work to make ‘burnout’ a redundant term. I do this through researching, consulting, writing and speaking on burnout prevention for individuals and organizations.

My books are called ‘Protect Your Spark’ and ‘Relight Your Spark’ 🙂

www.salcla.com
www.infinite-potential.com.au
www.wearehumanleaders.com
www.wearehumanleaders.com/podcast
www.linkedin.com/in/sallyclarkeevolve

Resources

My book “Protect Your Spark: How To Prevent Burnout and Live Authentically” is available here
And “Relight Your Spark: How to Heal and Evolve after Burnout” is available here

transcript

transcript created by Castmagic AI, may include errors

Sally Clarke [00:00:00]:
Saying we shouldn’t wanna accomplish great things, but at what cost? And I think having the courage to be really honest with ourselves about the cost of these kind of things is really important. And again, coming back to that self knowledge piece, you know at a deep level, this is something that really matters to you. They’re short bursts of working really hard. Very healthy can be very, you know, productive. But it’s when we’re doing that, almost from an addictive place or a not knowing what else to do with ourselves kind of energy that it can become very dangerous.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:00:31]:
Are you ready to reclaim your life from exhaustion and expand the possibilities of what life can be? If so, I’m your guide, Evelyn Pacitti, work life geek and engineer turned resiliency coach on a mission to redefine how we work, live, and utilize our energy. Each episode, I dig deep with my guests as they share their stories, spark, and strategies for developing our own unique work life blend. This is Engineering Serenity. Episode 13, exploring burnout and well-being with Sally Clark. Hello, and welcome to Engineering Serenity.

Sally Clarke [00:01:08]:
Thank you so much. It’s so good to be here with you.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:01:11]:
Today, we’re gonna explore the state of burnout in 2024 as well as the story of Sally. But before we get into that, I’d love for the audience to get

Sally Clarke [00:01:21]:
to know you a bit better. So I’ll start with a few basic questions. Awesome. What is your full name and pronouns? My name is Sally Clark. I’m trying to pronounce it in a non Australian way, so there is an r in there, Clark. And my pronouns are sheher.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:01:39]:
What is your age it? I’m 45. What career or industry do you work in?

Sally Clarke [00:01:46]:
I currently work in leadership consultancy and research.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:01:51]:
How many hours do you typically work per week?

Sally Clarke [00:01:54]:
That’s a great question. I would say on average, 25.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:01:58]:
On a scale of 1 to 5, how would you describe your work life balance today with 1 b? Not really. I’m a 5 b. Magic.

Sally Clarke [00:02:08]:

5. I do also have a little thing where I’d like to call I like to think of work as part of life, so I take issue with the term work life balance even though I get it and I know it’s we have to use it because everyone gets it. But I’m like, we’re not dead at work. Work is

Evelyn Pacitti [00:02:24]:
a part of a fulfilling life. Oh, I 100% agree with that. I usually say work life blend, but apparently my notes are old. Yeah. I like work life blend a lot more. Yeah. But I find that no matter how much we try to change the vocabulary, even though words are really important, It’s like it doesn’t resonate. No.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:02:43]:
Exactly. I also saw work like harmony recently, which I thought was an interesting one.

Sally Clarke [00:02:48]:
It’s lovely. I just think it’s all but it’s all life. Right? So it’s just life. Work is part of life. We just need life to be good and work to be a healthy and nourishing part of that.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:02:56]:
And I think if that integration starts to work and we start to think that way Yeah. That’s how we get it to feel like a 5 because then it’s not these chunks. Completely, Evelyn, and

Sally Clarke [00:03:06]:
I think that’s exactly the journey that I’ve been on in my career as well to get to where I am now where I’m not working huge number of hours, and I feel very good about that balance and that life that I get to lead.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:03:17]:
Oh, I have so many questions, but

Sally Clarke [00:03:18]:
I’ll come back to it. Where do you live? I’m based in Amsterdam, the Netherlands. I’m from Australia, and I’m starting to spend more time in Australia. So I’m sort of splitting my time almost half half between the Netherlands and Australia. My brother is in Brazil, so I get there quite often as well. I travel a lot.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:03:36]:
So what culture were you raised in?

Sally Clarke [00:03:38]:
So I was born and raised in country South Australia and grew up on a farm. So quite conservative culture, I would describe it as. And, yeah, sort of eighties nineties country Australia, which felt like a million miles from everywhere. That was my background. But I was very lucky. My dad was quite a bit older than most dads, and he retired when I was 5 and we were actually able to go traveling. So by the time I was in high school, I’d been to Europe, and I’d also been to China with my family. So I had this really amazing experience as quite a young kid from country South Australia also being exposed to different cultures and different places, and that was incredibly enriching for me.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:04:20]:
How do you describe your household today?

Sally Clarke [00:04:23]:
I live by myself. I have an incredible urban family of friends around the world, but my household is just me and I really like it that way.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:04:33]:
Do you have any hobbies?

Sally Clarke [00:04:35]:
Oh, I have so many of, like, I guess, the primary ones, I’m a runner. I do a lot of yoga, meditation, and if it’s a hobby or a practice. I surf badly, but I love it. I read a lot. And good TV series I’m also quite partial to.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:04:53]:
So that sort of sets the baseline of, like, where you are and how you’re thinking. I would love to dig more into that. You said that it’s been a journey to get to that work life blend of having a 5, and we started to talk where did it start from? Have you always been at a 5? What were the realizations? Tell me everything.

Sally Clarke [00:05:08]:
Okay. So I was an exchange student in the Netherlands when I was 16. So after having those travel experiences as a child, I was then lucky enough to be on an exchange program for a year, which really challenged me and really told me a lot about the beauty of taking sort of calculated risk in life that I could actually it was worth putting myself out there and sometimes failing, but just having the experience anyway. I went back to Australia and I studied law. And didn’t love it, but it was something that my dad had suggested early on that I would be good at probably. I was very just argumentative. And b as I studied law and then left Australia shortly after graduating and ended up back in Europe. Had an amazing time.

Sally Clarke [00:05:50]:
I traveled a lot, and then I got into different jobs. I was working in the city in London at various banks in sort of paralegal roles, and then fell into a job at a very prominent, law firm here in Amsterdam. Really by chance, it was a really incredible opportunity to work at one of Europe’s top firms in finance law. Very quickly found myself working 70, 80 hour weeks and really hating what I was doing. I felt miserable. But there was a lot of prestige really associated with that, and with the role. And I felt very much like I’d made it somehow. Like, I really was super lucky to have this opportunity, and I was doing a good job at it and succeeding.

Sally Clarke [00:06:28]:
And so this is obviously that’s it. And then over a few years, I really I started to experience a lot of stress. I was under a lot of stress and I was experiencing symptoms like headaches and weird rashes. I was very grumpy. I was not sleeping well. And whenever someone would say, hey, maybe you need to dial down work a bit. I would just snap back and say, oh, you don’t understand corporate law. Very defensive about what was going on.

Sally Clarke [00:06:55]:
And then yeah. So finally, it was in middle of January 2010. And I had worked yet another long week, and it was Friday. It was around 8 PM, and I had to get to Amsterdam airport to get a flight to France because my brother was doing a post doc in a small town in France at the time. And I’d go do it in for the weekend. So I jumped in a taxi, zoomed to the airport, got on this flight. And I don’t remember anything about the flight itself, but when I walked into the arrivals hall in Nantes and I laid eyes on my brother, I collapsed to the ground and I started crying and I couldn’t stop. And later, I looked back and I realized that I’d been through a catastrophic burnout.

Sally Clarke [00:07:37]:
But at the time, I was afraid to even use that word because there was so much judgment and stigma attached to it. It felt like everyone around me is coping, and this must be some personal failure. It must be my fault. I was very lucky. I was in a position of privilege to be able to quit my job, and I very quickly came to that decision that I didn’t belong there. And I trained as a yoga teacher and meditation teacher. I moved to Morocco, started leading retreats in in Morocco and teaching yoga and meditation at surf camps, meeting a lot of amazing people. And eventually, I got to this point where I was able to acknowledge that I’d been through a burnout.

Sally Clarke [00:08:15]:
And finally, I got to a point where I was actually really curious about this. And I realized I hadn’t really heal from it completely. So I started as a lawyer brain does of, like, let’s research this. Let’s, like, nerd out on what is burnout, what causes burnout. So delved into the books and ended up writing 2 books myself around burnout. And one about what we can do as individuals to protect ourselves from burnout. That one’s called Protect Your Spark. And the other is relight your spark, and that’s really around the journey to healing and evolving after burnout.

Sally Clarke [00:08:46]:
And the biggest takeaway I had from all this research was burnout is not the individual’s fault. It is Yeah. Not a weakness. It’s not a personal failure. It is your body’s intelligent response to chronic workplace stress. And so my mission since that point really has been to share that message, to help other people understand the the root causes of burnout that individual and organizational and societal level, and to help us all individually and collectively shift to finding a a way of working that doesn’t create that chronic stress. And so we can have that 5 of work, life, harmony, integration, balance, blend, however you wanna frame it.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:09:28]:
Dance. Exactly.

Sally Clarke [00:09:29]:
Oh, I like that.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:09:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. You gotta dance.

Sally Clarke [00:09:32]:
Yeah.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:09:34]:
There’s so many good things in there. So I have one personal question and then one follow-up on burnout research. So I’m gonna start with the personal ones. You had the burnout, then you shifted into doing working as a yoga teacher and working in meditation. Is that something that you had ever felt called to look into before, or did you feel like that was really a consequence of, I’m not okay, so I’m going into the directions that sort of bring more serenity?

Sally Clarke [00:10:00]:
Yeah. That’s a great question. I had done a lot of yoga. I actually did a lot of kickboxing when I was at law school, and my kickboxing instructor encouraged all of us to do yoga for our flexibility. And I really loved I loved yoga. And I remember just before I left Australia, my yoga teacher actually said, have you thought about doing a teacher training? Because I think you’d be great. And I was like, I’m about to play the scene and explore the world one way ticket. So I hadn’t acted on that.

Sally Clarke [00:10:25]:
And then when I was a lawyer, I did a lot of what I call type a yoga, which is, for those in the know it, like Ashtanga, Bikram. It’s the very kind of dogmatic, intense, sweaty yoga where the sequence is the same every time. And it’s like, for a type a brain such as my own, it’s like magic. You push yourself to the brink and then come back. And so it’s not the kind of let’s just sit calmly and relax. It’s, you know, we’re on the go. And I think at that time, when we’re in that kind of space in our work, it’s it was such a good fit for me, but also counterproductive properly.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:10:57]:
That’s what I was thinking. If you’re doing this type a yoga in a type a job, is it adding to it, or is

Sally Clarke [00:11:03]:
it really helping? Honestly, I think it’s why I love all kinds of yoga to this day. But it’s I find it I sort of have to smile a little bit when I see people who are in these very high pressure jobs in a hustle culture who are then also pushing themselves physically in something that’s ostensibly a spiritual practice. But it’s like we can’t actually sit still with our own thoughts. It’s simply too scary. And certainly, when I was a lawyer, it’s like the last thing I wanted to do was do sort of a yin yoga or restorative yoga where you do actually have more of an opportunity to tune into that stuff. Heck, no. Keep me busy. Keep me sweating.

Sally Clarke [00:11:37]:
Keep me distracted.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:11:39]:
I’m checking the box of my well-being. I’m doing yoga. What do you want

Sally Clarke [00:11:42]:
for me? I’m enlightened. Yeah. I checked the box. I did the thing. Exactly. Exactly that. And then you learn in your yoga teacher training that actually the physical practice is only one of 8 components of yoga. And you’re like, oh, that’s annoying.

Sally Clarke [00:11:56]:
There’s 8 other, like, spiritual, philosophical kind of things that I have to do in yoga. Ugh, how annoying. So yeah. What are the other 8? Oh, I’m gonna have to dig deep into my memories here. But it’s things like so asana, the physical practice, and the other 8 are things like personal practices and so yamas and niyamas, they call them, to sort of how we treat ourselves and how we treat the world. And really that yoga is in some senses I think the way best way to describe it is it’s every moment that you’re living on the planet. So it’s not just when you get to the mat and you do some poses and then you’re, like, fine. It’s really about how you interact with everything that’s living and breathing and even just this moment right now where I’m ostensibly, like, chatting to you.

Sally Clarke [00:12:39]:
But, like, how am I actually being present in this moment? How true am I being to myself and how connected am I to the moment. That’s my sort of, snapshot of how I would frame what yoga truly is as opposed to just sweating for an hour and a half on a mat twice a week.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:12:55]:
Oh, wait. You’d mentioned that in your research that you had discovered that burnout is not about the individual, that it’s about the environment and the chronic stress that comes from the workplace environment. Right. And I know that the WHO definition also specifically defines burnout as a consequence of work stress. Yep. Yet I find that the body in my own personal experience and experience with my clients, I find that our body reacts to chronic stress that doesn’t come from work, that it comes from also the outside environment. That people can burn out being a mom for example, or that, like, work is okay, but it’s the home life that’s creating the chronic stress situation that breaks you that shows up in your work. Mhmm.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:13:41]:
So how do you have that conversation? How do you think about that when the conversation about burnout is only about work primarily?

Sally Clarke [00:13:48]:
It’s a really great question. I think it’s one where, yes, the World Health Organization defined burnout as an occupational phenomenon, and it’s caused by chronic workplace stress. But we’re humans, not silos, and it is very difficult for us to pull apart the true causes. And I think there’s so much, particularly today, we’re facing so many, you know, geopolitical crises, personal relationship challenges, and there’s so many different things that we’re facing that are forms of chronic that cause give rise to chronic stress. And and just to highlight is what chronic stress is, it’s quite insidious. It’s quite sort of low level. It’s very easily normalized. Like, we’re all, you know, we’re all sharing memes about how crap everything is and how burnt out we are.

Sally Clarke [00:14:31]:
Like, it’s like, it’s just how things are. Right? And I think we really need to question that. The way that I so 2 things that come up for me. 1 is that I think it’s really important that the World Health Organization characterized burnout as a workplace phenomenon because it really shines a light on how bad things are at work, how many causes of human stress that are at work that we just take for granted. And through shedding that light on it and starting to look at those causes, we can actually say, hey, that’s not okay. That incredible workload that someone is being expected to do in it’s simply not reasonable. It’s not sustainable. Right.

Sally Clarke [00:15:11]:
That harassment that person is experiencing is not okay. And so really shedding light on work as a a primary driver of our well-being so that we can start to change how we work, shift at an organization or at a societal level how we not just talk and think about work, but how we actually work so that it’s no longer causing these baseline levels of stress. So that work to some extent and this is perhaps a bit of a they might sound naive to say, but the work can even be a place where we find sanctity, where we feel fulfillment, where we feel like we’re expressing a true form of who we are in our authentic selves. And that is a magic experience, and that’s something that I really do believe, work is capable of giving people.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:15:56]:
I think that could be true even if you’re not running your own business. I fundamentally believe that it is possible to build a work environment where everybody within the organization can show up and feel fundamental joy in what they do and fulfillment and can have that flow and flexibility. Absolutely. Yet I always come to the question, if we’re focusing on the workplace, why would the organization create that kind of flexibility for people when they’re used to this intensity and output? Yes. The wheels are starting to fall off, but where is that incentive for them to give so much as you put in the burnout report? Autonomy, connection, and guidance to the employees at all levels? Yeah. It’s a

Sally Clarke [00:16:44]:
question that I get almost every time I speak with senior leaders around okay. So we understand burnout’s an issue, but what what’s our what’s in it for us to do something about it? And I think there is so much data now to show how much impact shifting the way we work has on things like employee retention and productivity and actual baseline bottom line outcomes for businesses. There are swaths of evidence to show that it really does have these profound business outcomes. And particularly in a volatile market, when the culture is healthy and people have a good experience at work, the retention the people stay there because they know it’s that’s something unique and that’s special. And that has an incredibly powerful effect on an organization, not only in not having to rehire people, but also in the sense of continuity and that continued invested in the investment in the culture and the kind of identity that creates for a business, for a brand. And I think it’s it really does require a little bit of a perspective shift because for for so long, we’ve created humans as capital, as this kind of Right. Thing on the books to just in the same way that we might think of machinery or other forms of capital or assets, if you will. So really starting to think about humans as human beings and humans as an essential component for the productivity and profitability of your business.

Sally Clarke [00:18:07]:
And that mindset shift, it it’s challenging, and it does require I think there’s almost like a a little chasm that people have to jump to get there because it really does it is a perspective change. But once you’ve made it, it is transformative for not just the experience that people have at work, but the outcomes they drive because of that change in experience.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:18:29]:
It’s so it’s so true. And the thing is, the chasm looks really big, but I don’t know. Tell me from your experience, once the perspective shift happens, which seems radical, I feel the daily operations actually feels kind of the same.

Sally Clarke [00:18:45]:
It’s such a good point. Yeah. It’s one of those things where it feels like and it’s kinda making me think, and this might be a bit too hippie, and I apologize to the person who’s listening to this if this does sound a bit too hippie. But it’s like sometimes we need to acknowledge, like, the fears that we have around these things. It’s often just old ways of thinking. It’s kinda we have to start to question our own the validity of our own perspectives and why we hold these ideas to be true. And you’re absolutely right that, like, when we see organizations that have made this shift, it’s not firstly, everyone’s working really hard. People are still having great ideas, working together, having meetings, giving presentations.

Sally Clarke [00:19:21]:
There’s all of these things are still happening. What’s happening though is that they are doing it in a different way, in a way that is being looked at, evaluated. Where frustrations have been removed, inefficiencies have been removed, communication has been improved, and leadership has been improved. So all of these sort of almost invisible parameters and and guardrails about how we work have just changed slightly. The outcome is so different. The the lived experience is so different. So it’s still lots of people going to work and doing amazing things, but it is a completely different and it like, that’s a very hippie thing to say, but it is a different energy. And I do wanna just reiterate, it’s not just an energy.

Sally Clarke [00:19:57]:
It is actually measurably better outcomes, productivity, employer retention, and a a raft of other things.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:20:05]:
I know that you work in the research field within the burnout community, and there’s a lot of research that’s being done right now on what are wellness metrics. How are we taking that fluffiness and making it quantifiable? And I work in that in my own business. I run measurable wellness for a reason. Mhmm. How do you make it quantifiable? But I think there’s a really interesting conversation going on at large in research on what are those metrics not only for individuals but also as organizations. And I even read a report about how organizations are starting to look at being accountable for their wellness metrics and having to report on those wellness KPIs as well as their financial returns. What are you seeing in the trends there? What are the areas that they’re starting to focus on?

Sally Clarke [00:20:49]:
Yeah. It’s interesting. I think there’s a shift glow like, globally, and this does depend a little bit on where you are. So for example, in Australia, they recently brought in legislation around psycho social and putting obligations on employers to ensure that they’re not harming their people in their workplace, including in a from a psychological perspective. And of course, in the EU, there’s also regulations that exist around, I think, starting to broaden this concept of ESG to include people’s experiences at work so that there is an obligation on businesses, on on organizations to really be taking care of people. ESG? So the environmental, social, and governance reporting? Yeah. Okay. Thanks.

Sally Clarke [00:21:25]:
So at Hanoi. So I think it really is something that we can get very granular on. There are in numerous different surveys we can use and even software we can use to understand how people are doing. And this means that it we have this idea that, like, well-being is this sort of fluffy concept. It’s actually something that we can measure. And so through, as you mentioned, the study that I do each year with doctor John Chan in the state of workplace burnout, we look at exactly these factors. And so we’re able to see year on year how people are tracking. And we’re seeing some stabilization in burnout and being, like, bad, but it’s it’s stabilizing at the moment.

Sally Clarke [00:22:00]:
But it means that there we don’t have to be afraid of it as a concept. We can measure it, identify what’s perhaps blocking people from feeling better and doing better and having a higher well-being, Take those steps organizationally and then measure again in a year and see that improvement. And that’s something that I think some companies are doing that already, and those are the pioneers. I suspect that within 5 to 10 years, companies that will just be the norm, and that will be a KPI that will be expected. And it’ll be potentially, they’ll have to have to be reported as well. And potentially, there’ll even be penalties if they’re not showing that they’re taking active steps towards that. So I think it really is tracking that direction of increased obligation on organizations to create healthy environments.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:22:42]:
You mentioned your well-being report. Can you tell me more about this where did that idea originally come from? What do you dig into? Like yeah. Tell me. Totally. The audience cannot see, but I asked Sally this question and her eye just lit up. Uh-huh. She’s ready.

Sally Clarke [00:22:58]:
It’s I think it’s this again, it’s like this lawyer brain. I’m such a, like, a nerd. I just love the research and I love the the data. So I became involved in the infinite potential state of workplace burnout study a few years ago Through friends, I got in touch with doctor John Chan. I just finished I’d just written my books about burnout. He’d already done the first study in 2020. And so we started to collaborate on the research and writing of the report. The beautiful thing about this is we’ve got some really interesting year on year data to see how things are tracking.

Sally Clarke [00:23:26]:
And what we also do is each year is tap into a different perhaps something that’s in the zeitgeist a little bit and see, okay, is this something that correlates with burnout or not? So for example, last year we looked at whether psychological safety protected people from burnout and the finding was very clear that it did. So psychological safety being the the sense that we can take interpersonal risks without fear of negative consequences. So that this is something that really drives trust in the workplace. So when we feel that sort of safety at work to raise questions, concerns, posit ideas, That kind of environment really we see much lower rates of burnout. This year, we looked at a couple of really interesting correlations. 1 was with loneliness, and another was the impact of reduced working time modalities on burnout. So for example, companies that have shifted as a whole company to a 4 day week or a 9 day fortnight or shorter working hours and looking at whether their their rate of burnout was any lower than the sort of general population. And news slash, it is much much

Evelyn Pacitti [00:24:25]:
That was the stat that blew my mind, actually, when I read the report. Right. Like, that would 42% of people working 40 plus hours are experiencing burnout, but only 9% Yeah. If you’re doing full time reduced hours. Like,

Sally Clarke [00:24:38]:
42 to 9. Hello? It’s mind boggling. Exactly. Yeah. And it’s it’s one of those things where we check, check, double check, triple check, like, woah. Because it is drastic. Right? That is enormous. It’s huge.

Sally Clarke [00:24:51]:
And it’s what I always like, one thing is important for everyone to understand

Evelyn Pacitti [00:24:57]:
though is it’s not just about lopping

Sally Clarke [00:24:58]:
off a day of the week and just magically people stop burning out. What happens in these with these particular companies so we we work together with an organization in Canada that helps companies make this change. They usually take 12 to 18 months of preparation and planning and mapping and getting ready to make this change. They do a real hygiene check-in their organisation. So they’ll be looking at these organisational causes of burnout. So things like basic things like, am I getting too many emails? Are there too many meetings? But also, are people experiencing harassment? Are people feeling overworked? Is there any issue with the values misalignment, for example? So it really is a kind of a real health check for the organization itself to make it possible for the same amount of work to get done. In fact, some companies actually increase their productivity when they shift to a reduced workout model modality. Making that shift, getting the same amount of work done in a feasible way.

Sally Clarke [00:25:57]:
And the it it really is just incredible to see that it impacts pretty much across the board, sometimes a little bit of increase in productivity, usually about the same. But the impact for people’s well-being and their sense of autonomy, their sense of flexibility, Their physical and mental well-being is just astronomical. And so it really does show that this is not so much just about the shift to work time reduction, but it’s really about the how. And I think that’s a really profound lens for senior leaders to be able to use to look at, okay, if we wanna make these organizational changes, this is a really cool kind of diagnostic way of getting there. And the great thing is, if you wanna motivate employees to make change, and that can be hard sometimes, the incentive of getting back 50 days of your year ish to yourself, that is a huge character dangle. Then we go through the process of co creating this new work environment. There is some strong intrinsic motivation to do so.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:26:55]:
And the thing I found really interesting on, the thing that stuck out was that you mentioned that it’s not just removing one day. Because I think that’s the first thing you think about when you think about a 4 day work week, because that’s usually how it’s framed. Mhmm. But in your research, you called it full time reduced hours, which I think is a critical shift from a 4 day work week to a full time reduced hours.

Sally Clarke [00:27:15]:
Yeah. It’s such an important point, Evelyn. And I think it’s also really important to note that for a lot of people on and we’re both bay they both based in the Netherlands, which is a country where there’s a lot of people who work part time. And there’s nothing against part time work per se. But it does tend to impact people’s career progression and all kinds of other effects. They’re earning less because they’re working less than full time. So by a company actually making this shift to full time reduced hours, you’re actually creating a a work experience for everyone that’s more flexible. They have more time to take care of, for example, care responsibilities outside of the workplace.

Sally Clarke [00:27:49]:
And also, everyone’s still level playing field. They still got the same career opportunities as everyone else in the company. They’re still there full time. They’re still earning their full time salary. That’s another really important point. This is shifting to a reduced working work time model without lowering people’s salary. And I get why that can seem yeah. Yeah.

Sally Clarke [00:28:09]:
And it being trials run-in increasing numbers of countries around the world to show that it really does work. I think there’s some just started in Germany as well. So I I I think this is something that was completely radical 5 years ago. It’s still a bit edgy right now, but I think in 5 to 10 years, it’s actually gonna be something where it it undeniably a a great option, a way to a good way to shift how we work.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:28:32]:
And I think how are we designing how we work is a really big conversation. And that flexibility is for me that key point. That it’s not just I don’t work on Fridays, but it’s like I’m committed to so many hours, and I get to design what that looks like. Because I think when you start to really fall in love with your work again and it becomes part of your life, it’s part of the things that you do that also invigorate you. You find the space and the flow to make it happen. And that’s the conversation we need to be having. And I love it that the data is beginning to say, let’s have that conversation and let us show where it is impacting businesses in a way that they will pay attention.

Sally Clarke [00:29:11]:
You put that so perfectly, Evelyn. I couldn’t agree more. I think it’s it’s so important because for a lot of us, because it requires that little bit of a jump across the chasm, we need that data to get us there. We need that kind of conviction, that evidence that it is actually very strong chances that it’s going to work. And you can do it in a lower risk way. You know, it’s a it’s a very incremental journey as well. So that’s something that we can also doesn’t have to be a complete rewrite. But I love what you said particularly about really shifting how we work so that it actually enhances our ability to express our talents, to do what interests us, to engage with people, to create new things, to have ideas, to have, you know, to to have a work day and to feel not depleted, not like we’ve just spent 8 hours on meetings and now we have to do our actual work.

Sally Clarke [00:30:01]:
But where work is designed in such a way that we have the interactions that we need in the way that we need to have them, for those of us who are knowledge workers, that we have the time for deep work, to be able to get deeper into the stuff that that really interests us, whatever it is. But it work is really designed to reduce the the friction against doing what we really need to do and what we really want to do. And this is gonna perhaps sound a bit aspirational, but what really makes us come alive. And that’s certainly something that I’ve seen in my own career. I’ve seen it happen in an organization, and it absolutely is possible. And I think one

Evelyn Pacitti [00:30:36]:
of the objectives that I have with this show and the conversations that I wanna be having is How can we show examples of people who are starting to move in that direction? Yeah. That it that it is possible because I think there’s such an expectation before I burnt out. I found that, and I find that a lot in my community still that, like, there’s an expectation that you can’t shift the rules. Right. That this flexibility is not there until someone gives you permission or that you have to work for yourself. And the fact that we could start to be like, it is possible. What does that look like within an organization? Because I think it’s so important that we can say that flexibility is possible within an organization. It’s such an important point at Evelyn as well

Sally Clarke [00:31:16]:
because I think when I when I left the law, it felt like the only way of saving myself, if you will. If I’d stayed that I I just that wouldn’t have been possible somehow. And now we have examples of law firms that have shifted to 4 day weeks that don’t use billable hours. So it it there is specifically in the legal profession, that’s what’s happening. But there’s also so many other organizations that are doing it differently as well. So I think this is so important as well. Because what we don’t want is this kind of splintering of our workforce either. And I’d say this as someone who has worked for myself for 14 years now, and I’m very grateful that I had that possibility.

Sally Clarke [00:31:51]:
But there’s so much to be derived from working together, from collaborating and working together in an organizational context. When it is healthy and it nourishes us, this has been really amazing things can happen. So I think there’s a real sort of I always feel like for those of us who are not in burnout, it’s really an onus on us to ensure that we’re really, you know, working to make workplaces a really inviting, safe space for people to be, to come and to share their talents, to collaborate. Again, I think there’s particularly through COVID, we’re seeing a lot of increased isolation. I mentioned loneliness in the burnout report and does show that burnout, people who experience burnout are twice as likely to experience loneliness. It really is a big these issues are very big and prominent in our societies at the moment. So I think it it’s incumbent on us to make sure that that we can create workplaces where people do feel connected. We know humans are naturally social creatures.

Sally Clarke [00:32:45]:
We need connection. And I think we need to get the point where in order to maintain your well-being, you don’t have to run your own business. You don’t have to leave and be an entrepreneur. And you should do that if you want to. And it’s great. But that is not the only option. And that we can continue to create the sense of it’s not family. Work is not family.

Sally Clarke [00:33:03]:
And perhaps it’s not community either, but it is connectivity. And is that sense of feeling seen and heard and contributing in whatever way it is to something greater.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:33:13]:
And that and that combination of being seen and heard for your spark, bringing that out in view, creating opportunities for that in your work. For me, that’s the next step on top of once you get your energy back, then how are you also bringing your spark to life within your work?

Sally Clarke [00:33:26]:
Completely. And I love that we have a line language around this as well. It’s it’s that spark. Right? It is it’s so precious. I I often reflect on the fact that so we found in the latest study that 38% of people are in burnout. So 38% of people are experiencing exhaustion, cynicism, and reduced professional efficacy to the degree that they are in burnout, which is, you know, it’s a horrible thought. And then if if I think of that at a societal level, I’m sitting here in Amsterdam. Amsterdam.

Sally Clarke [00:33:54]:
If I think of 38% of the workforce in Amsterdam is going through that experience, how does that impact who they are as a friend, as a partner, as a parent, as a citizen? It really diminishes our ability to live this one precious life that we have to the fullest. And so it really is I think for that reason, very much my as you can hear, it’s very impassioned mission to help people avoid it and help organizations build environments where people don’t experience it so that we can be better humans and enjoy ourselves more for that

Evelyn Pacitti [00:34:29]:
reason. Yeah. Because that contraction that happens when you burn out, that contraction in that aggressive defensive, just survival Yep. Makes you so prickly. Not prickly, but almost brittle, I feel like. You get crunchy.

Sally Clarke [00:34:45]:
You do. Exact and it’s really I was chatting with someone about it yesterday. When I was writing my books, I wanted to add a dimension to the burnout definition because there’s an existential characteristic that comes up as well for a lot of people because and it’s really a combination of the dimensions because you’re cynical. So the cynicism is really withdrawal. It’s about pulling back. It’s me when I realized I see well, never feel like this one little incident where I was at supermarket in Amsterdam, and the person at the checkout was very nice to me. And I didn’t have it in me to be nice back. And that’s not who I am.

Sally Clarke [00:35:20]:
And that was a real moment of me going, oh, this is this doesn’t feel like me. And the number of times I was horrible to my partner at the time, and I I don’t have a lot of regrets in life. But I really regret the impact that my burnout had on my relationship because because I wasn’t myself. So that distancing from others, also distancing from ourselves, which has a kind of existential component, it’s terrifying. It’s why a lot of us in burnout also deny that we’re in burnout, because it’s really scary to acknowledge that things are really bad and that they drastically need to change.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:35:50]:
And that impact on your community, your partners, I think is another level that’s not really talked about, but it’s so critical. I used to describe my burnout my my partner, I called him the island, and my burnout was a hurricane. And the island gets so beat up. You’re spinning. You’re spiraling. You’re out of control. There’s moments of calm, but the island takes so much damage Yes. While the hurricane is trying to, like, get figured out.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:36:19]:
Yeah. And I respect him with all of my heart, and I know how much he took Yeah. In that recovery process. If we could recover for burnout is not like a instantaneous. Yes. Maybe if you’re really efficient, you can get back to work in 3 months. But I think, like, a trajectory of really bringing back your energy and your spark, 2 years maybe?

Sally Clarke [00:36:39]:
Yeah. 3? Seems realistic? Absolutely. Absolutely. There’s a lot of sort of estimation around how long it takes. And can I just say kudos to your partner? Shout out to that island. Well done on on withstanding that. It’s an it takes a lot of it takes a lot of energy and it can feel quite isolating for people in that situation. When your partner is going through burnout and they’re not really themselves anymore and if they’re very difficult to talk to about this, it can that in itself can be an isolating experience as well.

Sally Clarke [00:37:04]:
I think it’s it’s one where we when we are in a position when we are we’ve done the work of healing and evolving as I refer to it in my second book. Like, healing and evolving after burnout so that we can maybe experience what I call post burnout growth, which is similar to there’s a concept called, post traumatic growth. Post burnout growth. So yeah.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:37:25]:
It’s the best. It I always say, burnout’s the best thing that ever happened to me, but I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

Sally Clarke [00:37:30]:
Literally words out of my mouth. Like, it’s exactly that. I am super grateful. Like, sometimes I look back and I’m like, maybe if I’d been at, like, a regular law firm and I hadn’t burned out, I’d still be in law and that would be fine. But I was at a top flight firm working stupid hours. I burnt out crispy crispy crispy. And as a result, you know, potentially as a result, this is where I find myself today. And I love my life.

Sally Clarke [00:37:52]:
And I am very, very grateful for the lessons that I learned. Was it easy? No. But it’s it is it’s something where I think all of us who are not in burnout, maybe not all of us. But like for me, I’m like, I wanna use that energy in ways that that really helps people not to have to go through that experience to have a 5 in their work life blend. That people can have that ex that have get to that point without having to go through the entire, as you mentioned, years long process really of getting into burnout and then recovering from it. I couldn’t have said it better.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:38:29]:
We are so great. How can you have that jump and clarity of post burnout growth without having to experience the pain of an actual burnout.

Sally Clarke [00:38:39]:
Yeah. Exactly. For me so one thing that I use in my in protect your spark, the framework that I have, I’m like, I address that there are a lot of causes of burnout are way beyond our control. Right? These organizational and societal factors, some of which we internalize, These could these are it’s not our fault. Right? But we are humans with agency. And I think anyone who’s reading the book, it’s you might have there might be some space for you to actually take steps to protect your spark. And the way I frame it is it starts with self compassion. So this is really the fundamental belief that you have intrinsic worth just as you are.

Sally Clarke [00:39:12]:
It’s not contingent on your job title and how productive you are. You really fiercely believe that you are fundamentally worthy. For some of us, it means going to therapy to address the issues if that’s not the case for us. The second is self knowledge. So really understanding at a very sort of intimate level who you are as a unique individual. What makes you come alive? How you wanna spend this one precious life, what matters to you, and how you want your day to look. And this is this is something all got these amazing educations. I would never that was never raised in the the years that I spent at school or university, but it’s that process of really getting really intimately familiar with who we are.

Sally Clarke [00:39:52]:
So self knowledge. This is also around like values and what matters to you. And then there’s the self awareness piece. And this is how I what I see is ongoing day to day work of doing things for me like running, yoga, eating, okay, not consuming too much social media. Doing all these things that actually look after me so that I can stay attuned to the signals that I’m receiving from my emotions, from my body, from my mind about how I’m really doing. And that’s the measure of those are the signals that will tell me if I’m not staying attuned and in alignment to the person that I’ve identified that I am. So when you’re in burnout, it becomes very easy, very quickly to override those signals or to just decide for ourselves that it’ll be okay when I get to this deadline. Or I just need to get to the next vacation, then it’ll be this when this, that kind of framing.

Sally Clarke [00:40:46]:
Yeah. And so Oh, I hate that.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:40:48]:
It’s such a it’s such a vicious trap of when this project’s over, then I can rest. When I get to here, then I can rest. When my kid gets out of diapers, I can rest.

Sally Clarke [00:40:58]:
Oh my gosh. And we’re absolutely. And it’s all it’s very natural for us. It’s I think it’s also part of our and without gonna get into a full rant, but it’s a little bit about the kinda capitalist consumer society that we live in. It’s this kind of contingency on certain event happening for happiness to occur. And I think it’s very attractive and it’s very pervasive. And even and honestly, I’ve worked with so many incredibly intelligent people. But I tell you, some of the smartest people I’ve met are also the most capable of self deception because they all tell themselves these kind of things and they will believe it.

Sally Clarke [00:41:29]:
And it’s both liberating in a sense because we’re all doing it. It’s also a little bit heartbreaking because we cause ourselves and others a lot of damage when we lie to ourselves like that.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:41:39]:
I think that comes from the sense of you’re you’ve learned how to suppress and push through. You are smart and successful because you know how to make it happen independent of what’s going on around you or inside of you. Yeah. And yours you’ve gotten so many accolades, and your ego is loves everything that making it happen does at what consequence. And that self deception is so built in at this point. It’s such a good way to bring it out.

Sally Clarke [00:42:07]:
Like, it’s absolutely that, Evelyn. You’ve really nailed it. And I think it’s I see it a lot in the way that sort of our education system is shaped and how we define success as a society and how we talk to ourselves and each other about, about work and achievement and what it means to be successful. And I think really starting to unpack and question some of that stuff that we’ve taken on as as just how it is a really empowering process. Because we start to peel away, some of that I have to have it all or for example, a lot of people at university will pull all nighters. I don’t know if that’s an Australian term, but you work through the night to get things done, and then you get amazing grades and this kind of in order to get, like, a great graduate role or whatever. And it’s this constant roll on of pressure. And I think particularly when we’re young, and I see this a lot with people that have worked within their sort of early twenties and there’s so much energy, there’s so much spark.

Sally Clarke [00:43:02]:
Right? Their spark is very strong. And that means they can work 80 hours a week and pull all nighters for a while. And it’s very attractive because that really plays into that whole hustle culture narrative and achievement. Look what you’ve done and these incredible things that you accomplished. And that’s great. And I’m not saying we shouldn’t wanna accomplish great things, but at what cost? And I think having the courage to be really honest with our soul about the cost of these kind of things is really important. And again, coming back to that self knowledge me, you know at a deep level, this is something that really matters to you. They’re short bursts of working really hard.

Sally Clarke [00:43:37]:
Very healthy can be very, you know, productive. But it’s when we’re doing that, almost from an addictive place or a not knowing what else to do with ourselves kind of energy that it can become very dangerous.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:43:51]:
Yeah. There’s so much good stuff that we’ve talked about in today’s episode, and I could continue to talk to you forever. But I’m gonna slowly start to wrap it up and say a couple of things. So one, of the things that we’ve talked about, if people are like, okay, I’m struggling or I’m at a place. I know you’ve talked a lot about the organizational impact, but as an individual, what is some sort of mini experiment or some place that people could start to make a change?

Sally Clarke [00:44:18]:
Yeah. Sure. If you’re listening and you feel like, crap, I think I might be maybe burnout ish, like a little bit crispy. So very briefly, the way that I frame it in my second book in terms of healing, there are 4 components. And if you take the word burnout, remove the valve, you’ve got b r n t. Very briefly, that’s breathe. So connecting with your physical body to engage the parasympathetic nervous system to get out of that sort of heightened stress response. And that’s may not actually be breathing exercises.

Sally Clarke [00:44:45]:
It might be going for a walk or some other physical activity. But it’s really about engaging the body’s natural desire to find rest and equilibrium. R is about rest, so that’s really for a lot of us particularly, been out recovery, that’s gonna be a lot of physical rest because your body is incredibly depleted. And you really just need to find that rest. And if you’re not quite that crispy, then it’s building rest into your everyday. And it’s making sure that you’re getting breaks, that you’re putting down screens, that you’re getting out into nature, whatever it is for you. N is for nourish. And this is really about not just what we eat and drink, but it’s the information that we consume, it’s the environment that we find ourselves in, and it’s the people around us that we socialize with.

Sally Clarke [00:45:26]:
So are you nourishing yourself through what you consume, what you surround yourself with? And there’s some fairly key choices that we can make and boundaries that we can set there to really focus on nourishment as a as a way to hopefully evade, burnout, or certainly to heal from it. The final component, and it this is the most important one, Evelyn, talk. So as we mentioned, humans are inherently social beings. We need each other. We cannot recover from burnout alone. We can’t really do anything alone. And by talking, whether it’s to a professional or to a trusted friend, really starting with acknowledging to ourselves how we’re doing. But starting that conversation is so important.

Sally Clarke [00:46:07]:
And the sooner you start it, the healthier it will be for yourself and the the more quickly you can start that journey to well-being and to lighting your spark again.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:46:20]:
So good. People wanna learn more about you

Sally Clarke [00:46:22]:
or your work, or may find out more information. Hit me up on LinkedIn. I’m my website is sal cla.com. But, yeah, I’m working with human leaders and infinite potential. Find me on LinkedIn and message me. Let’s go from there.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:46:39]:
Great. Thank you. So to end the episode, I will ask you the final five questions that I ask all of my guests. Are you ready?

Sally Clarke [00:46:48]:
I am so ready. What is your definition of serenity? Nature.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:46:58]:
I love it. That’s so Yeah.

Sally Clarke [00:46:59]:
And I’ve just come from 3 months in Australia where I spent a lot of time in nature, and it was that healing. It was just incredible. So nature.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:47:10]:
If you could master one skill instantly, what would it be?

Sally Clarke [00:47:13]:
I really wanna speak perfect Arabic. And write, speak, read, and write perfect Arabic.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:47:20]:
What is your favorite method to recharge during the workday? Oh.

Sally Clarke [00:47:24]:
So right now, I’m dog sitting and playing with the dog, is hilarious and fun. And so take me back to being like a little kid because he’s a bit not. It’s super fun. Other than that, going for a run-in the middle of the day, I find it’s sometimes I’m like, oh, I don’t really have time. And then once I’m out, I’m like, ideas are suddenly synchronizing and all kinds of things are coming to get her. My it’s it is wild how often that happens.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:47:46]:
It’s good inspiration for me. It’s like on my list. Go for a run-in middle of day. Been there. So it’s a nice jab at that.

Sally Clarke [00:47:56]:
What are you geeking out about right now? Right now, I’m reading a book by Ruth Heur Brechtman, who’s a Dutch socialist and historian. It’s called Moral Ambition. I’m reading unfortunately, it’s only available in Dutch at the moment, but they’re just establishing what’s called the School for Moral Ambition here in Amsterdam, and it’s really about making sure that we use our talents in ways that serve the big questions that humanity is facing. I find it a really powerful message, really into his work, and, yeah, excited the book just came out. So I’m really frothing on that at the moment. Oh,

Evelyn Pacitti [00:48:33]:
you don’t need the first part of this question, but assume you’ve achieved the optimal work life blend, describe a typical workday.

Sally Clarke [00:48:41]:
Yeah. So I think great that it’s like it’s I think most of my days are reasonably close to this. So it would probably it starts with yoga and meditation in the morning, then my morning routine, which is Wordle with breakfast and coffee, starting the day within a couple of hours of deep work, few hours of meetings, midday run or late early afternoon run. And then probably a couple more out depending, like, maybe a meeting with a friend where we just explore really big ideas or presenting to an organization or something, having a good chat that kinda leaves me at the end of the day feeling like I’ve connected and I’m feeling like up up uplifted by that. And then yummy dinner in lovely evening. That would be a great day. And honestly, I have quite a few like that. Some cute.

Sally Clarke [00:49:27]:
I

Evelyn Pacitti [00:49:29]:
love point of connection at the end of the day where your sort of success criteria for your day is not about, I did something and I felt productive, Thanks

Sally Clarke [00:49:44]:
Thanks, Evelyn. That’s a really nice reflection. I think I’ve always certainly since I burned out, I’ve been very allergic to the word productivity in pretty much every I’m reading Cal Newport’s slow productivity at the moment, which is interesting. But it I think, you know, I mentioned I live alone and I love it, but I’m also very, you know, I I love connecting with people. My favorite thing is conversations that I leave knowing myself, the other person, and the world around me better. This has been one of those conversations. And the more of those I experience, the the happier I am genuinely.

Evelyn Pacitti [00:50:12]:
We’ve talked about so many things in today’s episodes. We’ve covered your journey from law into yoga and now into research into burnout things. The impact that corporations have, the impact we have as individuals at work, at home. We’ve talked about partners. We’ve covered all sorts of topics. What is the one thing you want the audience to take away from our discussion today?

Sally Clarke [00:50:36]:
You have a spark inside you. And if that is dwindling because of work, it’s not your fault. There are ways out. And maybe it also just we just mentioned that it connects wherever you are. Maybe the next conversation that you have, you take an extra beat to connect with that person, checking on how they’re doing, and just recognize their humanity in

Evelyn Pacitti [00:51:04]:
Intrigued or inspired by today’s episode, but forgot the details? Don’t worry. I’ve got you covered. Evelyn